Wade;351114Actually,
I don't recall ever advocating drafting Ragland unless a whole list of players with 2nd/3rd round value were all gone.

And the reason I dropped him into the third or early fourth on my board was the same reason I dropped Martinez to the 6th.
The lack of speed.

Speed...Schmeed

Darren Lee and Martinez are 10 yards away from a
play.
Martinez recognizes the play .1 seconds faster than Lee because he's a
better football player.
Who gets to ball carrier first?

Answer: Martinez

Once there, who makes the better tackle? Answer: Martinez

At 20 yards, under the same conditions, Lee gets there .03 seconds before Martinez; but Martinez is more efficient at the tackle.
There respective value:
a wash.

At 10, 20, 40 yards from play, Martinez correctly reads his key and immediately moves to make play...Lee takes a step in wrong direction keying on ball instead of his playbook key...who gets there first?
Answer Martinez every time.

Now take off the shorts and put on some pads, who's faster?
I think the speed gap closes.

Then put blockers trying to interfere with their respective path to the ball, who is better at working through that traffic?
Answer: Martinez, so if there's blocker in the way, despite their respective speed, Martinez gets their first.


Today, Martinez in the more valuable ILB.
Going forward, if Lee learns the game at a much faster pace than Martinez; then unequivocally Lee will be the better player that that time.
But to date Lee has not been the faster learner.

Speed counts, but it is a relatively small variable compared to other things, like ability to QUICKLY diagnose a play or to know your playbook assignments.


Oh and about "speed;" do you know what Martinez's fastest 40 time was? Answer: 4.52!

Barfarn;351122Speed...Schmeed

Darren Lee and Martinez are 10 yards away from a
play.
Martinez recognizes the play .1 seconds faster than Lee because he's a
better football player.
Who gets to ball carrier first?

Answer: Martinez

Once there, who makes the better tackle? Answer: Martinez

At 20 yards, under the same conditions, Lee gets there .03 seconds before Martinez; but Martinez is more efficient at the tackle.
There respective value:
a wash.

At 10, 20, 40 yards from play, Martinez correctly reads his key and immediately moves to make play...Lee takes a step in wrong direction keying on ball instead of his playbook key...who gets there first?
Answer Martinez every time.

Now take off the shorts and put on some pads, who's faster?
I think the speed gap closes.

Then put blockers trying to interfere with their respective path to the ball, who is better at working through that traffic?
Answer: Martinez, so if there's blocker in the way, despite their respective speed, Martinez gets their first.


Today, Martinez in the more valuable ILB.
Going forward, if Lee learns the game at a much faster pace than Martinez; then unequivocally Lee will be the better player that that time.
But to date Lee has not been the faster learner.

Speed counts, but it is a relatively small variable compared to other things, like ability to QUICKLY diagnose a play or to know your playbook assignments.


Oh and about "speed;" do you know what Martinez's fastest 40 time was? Answer: 4.52!

I agree with the general idea of what you're saying, however have you actually watched Lee play ball? The difference in speed is INCREDIBLE with pads on. Watch the Playoff game against Alabama if you want a summary of what Lee has the potential to do.

FLORIDA PACKER88;351123I agree with the general idea of what you're saying, however have you actually watched Lee play ball? The difference in speed is INCREDIBLE with pads on. Watch the Playoff game against Alabama if you want a summary of what Lee has the potential to do.

Bama game [Lee was a RS fresh in that game]?

Lee looks faster in pads; but dont see the difference as "incredible." If we look at 4.47 to 4.71 [that's .24 seconds over 40 yards] at combine in underwear,
that gap closes with pads.
The timed gap is further closed with Martinez looking more fluid in pads [This is also represented by his 4.2 and 6.98 in shuttle and cone to Lee's 4.2 and 7.12].

And yes, in Bama game Lee had 2 sacks and another TFL, pretty good; but that is 3 plays. What did he do the other 60-70 plays? Note: no one blocked Lee on 1 sack and he benefited on a coverage sack for 2nd [because OSU plays with 11 studs on D].
Lee had one pressure and made a few other nice plays.
But…

At 9:53 1Q. Lee comes to LOS on left probably with outside contain and should flow to the ball always maintain leverage to the backside.
But he chases ball carrier running right, realizing too late the ball was faked and QB runs up middle past him.

9:33 1Q, QB hands off ball to Henry who goes right.
QB fake sprints out left and Lee again bites, taking a false step preventing from recovering and chasing down Henry who ran for a 25 yard TD.

5:11 1Q- ball is faked to full back up middle, Lee takes a false step inside and pitch goes to RB who runs outside.
Lee uses his speed to recover and avoid a WR block to get outside allowing him only to get a shoe string tackle. But he goes high on Henry who just swats him away like a mosquito. [Note Lee was a missed-tackling machine, OSU stats show 22 in 2 years].

This is 3 consecutive athletic plays of a bad football player.

This last play is the perfect example of which I speak.
Martinez probably doesn’t take the false step inside and beats Lee to Henry outside.
Maybe Martinez doesn’t make tackle either, Henry is pretty good, but he at least is in better position and slows him down more.

Lee’s lesser awareness of the ball and taking more false steps makes Martinez the guy who gets to ball carrier first, notwithstanding that in skivvies from a track start Lee USUALLY [not always] times faster.

Randall and Rollins didn't have the best timed speeds last year as DBs. But they're ball hawks. They know how to play the ball in the air, and they know how to make a play on it.

I heard PFF rated Martinez at the top of college football in coverage.

Wade;351114Actually,
I don't recall ever advocating drafting Ragland unless a whole list of players with 2nd/3rd round value were all gone.

And the reason I dropped him into the third or early fourth on my board was the same reason I dropped Martinez to the 6th.
The lack of speed.

Wade- I haven't seen your board so I apologize for lumping you into the category. Unfortunately, when I find myself bored I lurk the comment section of the Green Bay Packers FB page and there were tons of fans that were pissed we didn't draft Ragland and in the same sentence were calling Martinez slow. It just blows my mind sometimes. I shouldn't bring that filth into the PH discussion board.

As far as coverage, what do you make of PFF grading him as the best coverage ILB of the draft? Aside from Darron Lee (who was already selected) and Myles Jack, is there anyone else you would have suggested they took? These are really the only two guys that could have the speed you are referring to and Myles Jack injury is a huge red flag.

I really think Martinez will turn out to be a good player in this scheme. I am not expecting an immediate impact but I am hopeful that he will be groomed to be a good ILB for the Packers.

Yerko;351132Wade- I haven't seen your board

Here is Wade's board ...

Yerko;351132Wade- I haven't seen your board so I apologize for lumping you into the category. Unfortunately, when I find myself bored I lurk the comment section of the Green Bay Packers FB page and there were tons of fans that were pissed we didn't draft Ragland and in the same sentence were calling Martinez slow. It just blows my mind sometimes. I shouldn't bring that filth into the PH discussion board.

As far as coverage, what do you make of PFF grading him as the best coverage ILB of the draft? Aside from Darron Lee (who was already selected) and Myles Jack, is there anyone else you would have suggested they took? These are really the only two guys that could have the speed you are referring to and Myles Jack injury is a huge red flag.

I really think Martinez will turn out to be a good player in this scheme. I am not expecting an immediate impact but I am hopeful that he will be groomed to be a good ILB for the Packers.

Most people are with you.
I guess what I saw (and Kevin will be quick to point out that I haven't seen much) disagreed with the PFF grade.
But, as many have pointed out, none of the GMs picked Billings at DT until well into the fourth round, and I had him being worth a trade up of 5-10 positions by the Packers in round 1.

In short, I don't know much.

Zero2Cool;351133Here is Wade's board ...

Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well.
Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?


I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time.
Really missed on that one.

Wade;351136Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well.
Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?


I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time.
Really missed on that one.

Well, here's to hoping you're as wrong about Martinez as you were Collins and that you're just as right about every other pick.
Will be one hell of a draft then.
[cheers]

Wade;351136Er, except I don't do the "keep calm" part very well.
Wasn't it just last year when I went on a huge rant about the idiocy of Thompson's draft?


I also remember thinking Nick Collins was a really dumb pick at the time.
Really missed on that one.

My board would simply be [shrug] lol


I lost my ambition to complain when Greg Jennings was taken over Chad Jackson and witnessing who was wrong (me) and who was right (Packers). It was clear I can't trust ESPN or anything I read about players.
Simply not worth getting worked up about. I'm just not one of the grades before pads kinda fellas.